Change The Ratio

Change The Ratio’s goal is to increase visibility, access and opportunity for women, with the understanding that each begets the others. 

Our focus has been on women in tech, new media & entrepreneurship but the CTR mission is an expansive one, and extends to other underrepresented groups across any and all industries where there might be lopsided representation. Hmm, can you think of any? We know. We’ve got our work cut out for us! That’s why we need your help. Look at the world, see the defaults, recognize who they push forward and who they hold back - and then change it.

Change the ratio! 

 

The Female Funny: Is it Different for Girls? SXSW 2011

Audio here.

Rachel Sklar (moderator) with Jamie Denbo (Ronna & Beverly, Weeds), Michaela Watkins (SNL, Hung, Wanderlust) Irin Carmon (Jezebel), & Stuart Blumberg (The Kids Are All Right, Keeping The Faith)

RS: Hello I’m Rachel Sklar and this is “The Female Funny: Is it Different for Girls.” A little bit of background on this panel before I introduce the panelists so they can sit up here all awkward. The panel picker submissions have to be sent in, in July, which feels like a very, very long time ago when you are sitting up here at South by Southwest. On July 9 when they were due — and of course, I submitted them at 11:59 on July 9th — the big kerffufle in the comedy world vis-a-vis women, related to the question of women on The Daily Show. Let’s just say it was an easier pathway for men to get in the spotlight on The Daily Show than it was for a woman. Based on the raw ratio, it seemed like it’s a little easier for men to make it on screen than a woman. There was a backlash from women on The Daily Show, as a collective — not just women who were on screen who actually got air time — but women on The Daily Show as a whole. So the issue became conflated with women in general and was The Daily Show nice to women in general?

So that was in the background. I literally was traveling in a hotel room in Seattle. I wrote a post about Jezebel & The Daily Show. And wrote this submission for South By. So that was very much in the background.

As someone who used to do comedy and had the experience of being in a comedy troupe, saying a joke and no one responding and then two seconds later, a dude saying the same joke and everyone laughing, and then having the experience of smacking back at Christopher Hitchens in 2006 at his now infamous ‘women aren’t funny’ essay that was actually published in Vanity Fair — this has just been on my radar. And so I figured, time to talk about it. Not so much whether women are funny, because they are, there’s living proof on this stage — especially with Stuart. And a few people in the audience. But looking more at the institutional reasons why there is such a ratio gap are women of all ages who are able to make it, and get real opportunities in the world of comedy. And we are going to talk about not only gender but how age plays into it.

One of the other big motivators for doing this panel is a quote by Colette Burson, who is the co-creator of Hung. You must know the show Hung or at least be familiar with why it’s important. She gave a quote to the New York Times,”It is incredibly difficult to find beautiful, talented, funny women over 35.”  It pissed me off because I was over 35 at the time when I read that quote. I am not any more. In any case, I really wanted to talk about that all underlying issues. So that’s why I raised it. Now it’s time to introduce our fabulous panelists.

We’re going to start with Jamie Denbo. Who is one half of a comedy duo Ronna & Beverly. The other half is Jessica Chaffin, who is sitting right there. Jamie and I had a very spirited exchange around the time of The Daily Show kerfuffle, which made me think of her for this panel. She’s also author or Best Buds, which was picked up by Natalie Portman so that she could have an excuse to smoke pot while pregnant.

JD: It’s a girl pot movie. It’s a pot movie. But it’s got girls smoking pot.

RS: Because girls can spoke pot too. Next we have Michaela Watkins. You’ll probably recognize her from Saturday Night Live. If you’ve ever said “Bitch please!” or made fun of Hoda and Kathie Lee. You’ll also know her from The New Adventures of Old Christine. Coincidentally she’s been working on Hung, so she’ll have some comments.

When Michaela left Saturday Night Live, Tom Shales, who co-wrote the book on SNL commented in the Washington Post —not a dinky little paper —on the fucking Washington Post, he commented because she is too beautiful to be funny.

MW: It was classically beautiful. Classically.

RS: Which she definitely is. And she’ll definitely have things to say. Next we have Irin Carmon, who is a crack reporter for Jezebel, who is the woman who broke The Daily Show story wide open and made a lifetime friend of Jon Stewart. She’s been tracking this and really been a terrific thoughtful voice about this issue, not reactive, not angry, just really smart and thoughtful. As Charlie Rose might say, I’m very pleased to have her at this table.

Last is Stuart Blumberg, who is here because of gender requirements  - we had to have a dude.

SB: Made me feel so welcome.

RS: Stuart co-wrote with Lisa Cholodenko the script to The Kids Are All Right. I don’t know if you saw him during the Oscars telecast. He was there as a nominee, fingers crossed, we would have given you the Oscar. Stuart also, in addition to working closely with a woman who many think ought to have been nominated for best director, has a definite window into that side of the world. And in addition to being in touch with his ying and his yang. He’s also written numerous stuff like Keeping the Faith with Ben Stiller and Ed Norton and Jenna Elfman. And The Girl Next door, so he can also speak to the use of porn in comedy. And co-produced the Barack Obama documentary — wait what was it called?

SB: By the People.

RS: I’m Canadian so I totally didn’t know that. So I’m going to throw this out and I’m going to start with Jamie. In your experience, what’s the biggest institutional roadblock for a woman who might start at the same level as their male counterparts?

JD: I don’t actually think it’s always insidious. Guys tend to like to help each other. They bond together. They like doing comedy together. They like doing bits together It’s not that it’s not the same for women, but the opportunities for men are greater. It’s a business like anything. Men do dominate in Hollywood. I know that’s a surprise to everybody, and because of that when they get opportunities, they take their friends along and then they think “Oh fuck we need to put a girl in this. I totally forgot we also have to have a girl.” And then who ever is in charge of overseeing whatever they opportunity is would be like, “Let’s get a really young hot girl who people have heard of.” So they put the girl in there, so there is a girl, but it’s not necessarily the girl they do improv classes with. That’s been close to my experience. 

I don’t think it’s carefully calculated in some way. It happens. It’s real and it’s a bummer. But I don’t necessarily think it’s this mean thing. It is somewhat overwhelming. When you look at the math of things. You mentioned The Daily Show situation. The Daily Show — is it okay, are you going to mention that?

RS: No go ahead. But while I’m already interrupting, I always forget to say what the hashtag is. And we opted as a group for the very subtle hashtag of “Vagina” So please tweet and use that

JD: If you can find some kind of icon of a vagina with funny goggles and a mustache, that would be fantastic.

RS: Maybe parenthesis, colon, parenthesis. I just made that up, but it kind of works

SB: That’s what mine looks like

JD: It seems like The Daily Show is a good example. It’s math. There are actually four male correspondent positions for everyone one woman. They can kind of cast who they want. So what is a bummer is when they say there isn’t a double standard. Because there kind of is. It’s like they’ll pull their men from whatever comedy clubs in sort of obscure places but when the female position does open up, she has to have come with her own fan base. In this particular instance, been on magazine covers wearing very little. Which is what it is. They can do it. I never saw the Wyatt Cenac’s spread, but I’m sure it’s pretty hot. So it’s sort of that there is a ratio issue

RS: So Michaela can you speak to that as well?

MW: I can’t speak of The Daily Show. I just think it’s a funny show. i don’t know anything that goes on behind the scenes. But in terms of women, I’m a Groundling and I’m going to disagree for a minute - I saw Bridesmaids last night and I was blown away. I think it has completely shattered the division between male and female comedies. Now there’s a straight line, a ditch has been torn up through it with a tractor. There’s no more line. It’s just a big gravelly road. I did not miss the men in this. That said, Kristin [Wiig] is a Groundling, and I saw Groundlings all over that film. These are women who have been working together a long time.

JD: When they get to do it.

MW: When they get to do it. And it finally happened! That was just amazing to see. 

RS: Why is that film that tears up the line — why is it happening now in 2011?

MW: Well, I don’t know the answer to that. I will address the Colette Burson thing. Ironically, just coincidentally she happened to mention to me —I was shooting last week — she mentioned this quote she got a lot of heat for. Somehow I’d missed it. When she explained it to me, I felt like I needed to dispell some myth that she’s an evil, sexist women

RS: Trust me, I want to like the woman who created Hung.

MW: The ire is just misdirected. There should be ire, but it shouldn’t be directed to Collette. All she is just the messenger. Exactly what Jamie was saying about how you have these roles where they are so plentiful and vibrant and full for men, and then they go, let’s hire a woman, and someone very pretty and light, and not necessarily very funny. And if that’s where your bread and butter is, and you see these comedies being made and the parts written for women are these light, thin, two-dimensional parts they are not going to fill it with funny comedy people, thy fill it with pretty people who can be humorous. So what happens to these women when they stop being pretty and turn 35 and your body’s changing, looks are changing, these roles are drying up for you, they are not there. You leave the business. You’ll raise your kids, do other things.

What happens with shows like Hung is that if they’re going to hire someone over 35, they’ve got to be someone coming off of other work. Are there women over 35 who are funny? Oh my god, every single woman friend of mine is over 35 and the most hilarious person I’ve ever met.

Same with Colette. She can’t hire them. HBO wouldn’t approve them. The powers that be won’t approve them.

I know this firsthand because I had a pilot that I wrote for ABC and it sold and we thought it was going to be made. I wrote my dream part. ABC couldn’t guarantee that I would play the lead. They said I might not get it. They said I could test for it, but I was only guaranteed a supporting part. This was like a dream part for any actress. We were meeting with casting directors and the show runner said, “I think our lead needs to be 32, maybe 33, because you know, if she’s pushing 40 and her life is a mess, that’s just kind of sad.” And I was like, I don’t think it’s that sad. I think it’s kind of normal, actually. So I saw that first hand.

When you think about who are these actresses who can fill these parts that the network will approve the list is really small, really fast, and is really infuriating. So what Collette is talking about is when she went to CAA to say “I want to find someone who is beautiful and funny and all of these things, and not a household name yet.” CAA said we don’t have that. It’s not what we represent. You’ll get a big name, a list of ten people everyone wants or it’s really, really tough.

RS: That is extremely illuminating and helpful. And now I like by Colette Burson. New BFF. So lets talk about the sad over 35 year old whose life is a mess, ie Liz Lemon, right? Irin, what did Jezebel readers, what did the comment section, offer as feedback on Tina Fey and Liz Lemon? I find is an extremely interesting Rorschach, what’s happening on 30 Rock. Particularly the recent episode—

JD: Oh it was great. TGS Hates Women?

RS: Yes, TGS Hates Women.

IC: Joan of Snark? i should change that on my business card. Well, I think it’s been very interesting to see how our readers, obviously not everyone is commenter, but we have an extremely vocal comment section. It’s one of our famous things that they have. We have a very high level of cultural consumer, very enthusiastic, but also are very, very sick of a lot of things they’re getting. You have women, like the women to the left of me, you have them going through these processes where what comes out is not what maybe they intended or they didn’t get they actress they wanted. And out readers can tell. They can tell when they’re fed shit packaged as good things for women. So when there is a person like Tina Fey that person has to stand in for everything everyone wants from a woman in comedy, whether that’s fair or not. Because Tina Fey is so powerful, so smart, and so very funny, I think everything Liz Lemon does, or everything Tina Fey in her own time gets held up to a microscope where everyone wants her to be a perfect feminist women.

So the episode you are talking about, I don’t know how many of you have seen it, a blog called Joan of Snark which happens to have a hot pink logo, which some other blog has, writes a piece saying TGS Hates Women and in order to counteract that, they hire a girl with pigtails and a bellyshirt who sleeps with everyone on the set. I felt like that episode showed Tina Fey is pretty ambivalent about this stuff like we all are. On the one hand we want her to never make a joke that we find mean to other women, but on the other hand, sometimes being funny means offending people and it doesn’t always mean being the perfect person. The one thing I’ve taken away from our readers, their response to The Daily Show piece, their anticipation for Bridesmaids is, there is a tremendous hunger for seeing women outside the roles we’ve seen them, seeing them outside the role of the girlfriend. We’ve been having this conversation for so many years. I saw Bridesmaids last night with these ladies and it feels like its already turning. And one of the reasons it feels like its already turning and we’ve been given a shot is because you have these conversations on the internet and elsewhere where people are saying I’m sick of this, I’ll pay money for something better, why can’t we see Michaela in her own show? And maybe they are not that powerful - yet but if you put your money behind seeing those things maybe people will pay attention.

RS: Stewart, as someone with a penis

JD: Hashtag penis

RS: When you hear this talk of the roadblocks thrown up in front of people — you also sold a pilot to ABC, you’ve had a terrific career so when you hear the anecdotes about the different obstacles, do you think aww man, that happens? Or have you seen that happening in your interactions with Lisa, trying to get The Kids Are All Right made, did that become magnified?

SB: First of all, I have to say it’s very hard for a while, Ivy League, Jewish man to make it in Hollywood. It’s a testament of my skill. First of all, raised by a feminist mother who would always, a refrain would say “Don’t you think I’m funny, I think I’m funny,” really informed my comedy. And back in the green room Jamie said something, I’m just going to put it out there, “Lets be honest, a lot of guys successful in comedy are Jewish guys who hate their moms.”  I didn’t mean to out you, but a lot of that is true—

JD: It’s true! 

IC: Including John Stewart?

SB: I think the reason my writing evolved is a lot of therapy. So now that I love my mom and don’t hate her, it’s a little different. But let me get back to the other thing—

RS: No, no keep talking— 

SB: So Lisa Cholodenko and I co-wrote this movie The Kids are All Right. And when we went out to cast it, it was fascinating. We saw firsthand something I see a lot, but never noticed so ruthless, the kind of foreign sales model of what people are worth. And this is something you learn. Literally every actor has a quantified number attached to them. We had this one French company that says [French accent] “Well, wouldn’t it be better if you had Charlize Theron and Angelina Jolie to play zee lesbian mothers?” And I said, yeah, that’s awesome but there’s one problem and that is they have an eighteen-year old daughter. You do the math, that’s just ridiculous. They don’t live in Appalachia. But they really wanted that and we had to fight. So we got Annette Benning, three time academy award nominee and Julianne Moore, four time nominee, and we could barely get any money for them. And they’re the gold standard as far as I’m concerned in terms of drama, comedy actors. And it was brutal. I saw Lisa, having to go through this kind of mental gymnastics to say, “I’m going to need shooting days.” She shot this is 23 days because we got so little money. If she picked someone bigger, she could have got 30 days, more coverage. So that’s an interesting perspective

To step back, the business is run by men. Although the interesting thing is, so many studio heads are women. So many of these women have bought into the male mindset. They don’t care about whether they think women are funny, it’s like the John Maynard Keynes thing, it’s about the beauty pageant. You pick not who you think is the most beautiful, but who you think most people will think is most beautiful. So that’s what they are doing. And I agree with you. I think we are getting to a winter of discontent. When they notice something authentic, that is starting to pay off.

That’s why when six years ago Judd Apatow made the 40 Year Old Virgin, it felt different. Now it doesn’t feel different. But with this, it’s women doing what he did six years ago in a way. It’s like, holy crap, it’s weird, it’s different and I love it. And I think what has to happen is that we need to go see that movie. We need to make it make a hundred million dollars.

Now they’ll take away the wrong lesson — just put chicks in there talking about vaginas, instead of funny, really funny smart chicks doing it, working as hard as they did to make a great movie.

But it’s a systemic change from the bottom up, where you vote for a movie for going to see it

JD: If i can just say something. Two things i’ve got to say. When my pot comedy script went out, because my name is Jamie, they didn’t know I was a woman. And the feedback was, “yeah, it’s funny but women don’t talk this way.”

Which I thought was amazing and worth noting. But also, when you mentioned Judd Apatow. I love big comedy. I love Judd Apatow’s comedies. I love The Hangover. I think they’re brilliant. What Bridesmaids does as well, not just with the main characters, but those big comedies, they’re all about fleshing out the small scene-stealing parts. And typically, those can got to no name actors. And they can go to no-name comedians. They can go to the weird fat guy! Who you’ve never heard of and gets to do his weird thing!

There’s a scene in, I think it was I Love You Man, and Nick Kroll and Aziz Ansari and guys who are like that smaller tier comedy thing getting bigger and bigger. Those are the parts that are not typically written for women. Unfortunately it’s been like the Katherine Heigl straight uptight female character, her crazy best friend who is always drunk, and then no other women in it. You don’t get a fun opportunity to for those parts. And those are the meat.

For example, Kristin stole Knocked Up. If you remember that one scene. Everyone remembers that. She was a great example of that. And that’s where I wish writers would pay attention in big comedies, is giving those little parts to fantastic women. Because the studio is not going to fight you. They don’t think it’s a big deal. That’s how Isla Fischer ended up in Wedding Crashers. Nobody gives a shit about the fucking plotline in Wedding Crashers but they remember that hilarious part, because the studio was like, yeah sure put whoever you want in that part because it’s a small part, no one cares. So that’s where, as writers and creators, we can flesh it out with funny chicks

RS: Actually, it’s worth noting, I have it from some pretty good authority that Kristin Wiig’s part, in Knocked Up, once the tests came back, was actually increased. Her stuff was picked up from the cutting room floor and put back in the film.

So lets talk about Judd Apatow, and the new trend. Like Jonah Hill, Michael Certa, I Love You Man. It seems like a new era of bromance happening in comedy that feels pretty recent.

JD: It’s manchildren, it’s extended adolescence but I think that’s everyone, but they’re just not paying attention to the female version of that. I think that extended adolescence is happening in lots of this generation. We’re having kids later, smoking pot longer, we’re smoking pit while we’re pregnant longer (some of us) it’s just not addressed. And I think what made Bridesmaids work is it is Judd Apatow style comedy with a new environment. It’s like, oh right we can put the shit scene in a lady restaurant. They’re finding new places to shit on each other.

IC: It’s interesting too, I think when Judd Apatow arrived at the scene and people responded because it had an authentic sensibility. Well, I ran into him, I guess it was the premiere of Tiny Furniture, and asked him for Jezebel about this stuff. I think he makes a good point that this is his sensibility and in his world, women are the stable ones who may be bossing him around and telling him to grow up. And that’s his truth, for lack of a better phrase. Obviously you get sick of that being the only thing you see, but you have to give him some credit. He’s obviously supporting other people’s things. He was there because he’s producing Lena Dunham’s show for HBO that’s going to be about three women and he was a producer of Bridesmaids. I actually think, and I’ve said this before, as difficult as these conversations can be. And with The Daily Show, I would say it was  a pretty fierce backlash, some from women involved in the show. As difficult as it can be for women, some who don’t want to bite the hand that feeds them, they don’t want to alienate their male friends, what you start to see is they start to check themselves. They say, “oh wait, I thought I was a nice guy and I couldn’t be excluding to women because I’m dorky. I didn’t really think about how maybe I should give her a chance.” If there’s anything we can say about these conversations its that we see them maybe say, ok, maybe I’ll take my head out of my ass and put my considerable muscle behind these voices that may be interesting but may not be of the same perspective as me

MW: I think one of the most amazing things that’s going to change women in comedy and why Bridesmaids might be at the precipice of it, it’s because, well, my mother went to see Madeline Albright speak and she said there’s a special place in hell for women who don’t help women. What Kristin has done, Kristin and Annie Mumalo, they were Groundlings together, and they’re just generous. They’ve created this movies that’s filled with women, there’s loads of women. All the women are funny — not just Kristin is funny and everyone else supports. Everyone is hilarious in their own unique way. It’s women helping women. It’s Tina Fey getting Rachel Dratch and Amy Pohler in SNL—

RS: And Jan Hooks

M: Amy Pohler changed the temperature and things started to happen. When before it was like there was one slot and may the best women get it—

JD: And if you get it don’t be crazy!

IC: Michaela, in the comedy context did you find there were women helping you as you were going up?

MW: I’ve been lucky especially, New Adventures of Old Christine, Julia Louis-Dreyfus is another one who wants the best women on the show. Not a dowdy frump who is going to make her look good, she wants the funniest people working on her show. If it’s Wanda Sykes, it’s Wanda Sykes. And Emily Rutherford, and all the women on the show. Amy Sedaris and everyone who’s come on. I’ve been lucky. But I’ve heard horror stories where women are terribly competitive. I don’t know how anyone can do good work in that circumstance but that’s not my experience.

RS: Can I just flip it for a second. There’s this meme that women don’t help other women and are competitive and blah blah blah. People are always trying to push that at me. Now Stuart, in your experience, are men competitive? Do men sometimes not help each other? Just want to clear this air—

SB: I was thinking about W E. Dubois crabs in a bucket thing about-

RS: Ivy League educated—

SB: Yeah, of course they can be horrible. And the Judd Apatow model, they all do help each other, but those are the most competitive guys. All of those guys help each other but secretly want to be so much bigger than each other.

JD: Listen to Mark Maron on that. He is so honest about that competative energy. Even in himself. And it’s really raw.

SB: And there’s part of that that’s destructive and part of that is constructive. It forces them to be better and outdo each other. I think, to flip it around, women develop the same farm league system. And they are doing it, where they help each other out, bring each other in, then goad each other to up the ante. There’s a show I was watching on my Netflix stream called Pulling, which is an English TV show about 3 women who are horrible. They are drunk, narcissistic, selfish sluts. And it’s the funniest show I’ve ever seen. It’s been brought to America. And done not by HBO, who should have, but ABC-

JD: They already did it and it bombed. It didn’t go forward

SB: That’s the interesting thing about our culture vs. other cultures. They were too scared to show that kind of truth, women that real. And women as shallow, selfish, and needy and desirous as men are. I think, when you are talking about how Judd Apatow sees women, he sees them as these bastions of stability, and sure they can have their freakouts, but they are the rocks that men can go home to. And I think that’s what men want to believe. Not to say women can’t be that. But we all have this insecurity. The problem with men is, men cant see women as, you know…they have a hard time seeing them as other than hysterical or rocks. They have a hard time seeing it’s usually somewhere the middle. When I see men writing women, I see that polarization. Sorry I just jumped all over there.

RS: No, that’s awesome. Now we were talking about the economics of it, the hard math of it. Has the internet changed that? Have the lowered barriers to entry allowed by the internet — has that changed things? Allowed women to get their own funny shtick up there? Or does it feel like it still gets perpetuated?

MW: I think Twitter has done amazing things. Like, what’s her name, she’s a model, she lives in Canada, she’s hilarious—

IC: Kelly Oxford

MW: Kelly Oxford. Talking about how much she hates her kids in all of her tweets and then CBS wanted to make a show. They didn’t pick it up, of course. But she wrote it. That’s something. They pull her out of semi-obscurity and that’s pretty cool

IC: I can’t speak to how Hollywood executives view it, but you hear this a lot that women aren’t joining the comedy troupes, or they are not submitting scripts, or they are not auditioning and we cannot find them and blah blah blah. I believe there are fewer women applying and that is an objective fact, but one of the things that the internet is helping is its making people who didn’t conceptualize themselves as creators of funny content, it’s forcing them to…It’s funny when I became a blogger, my family said, “We always thought you were the least funny in the family. But now you are doing okay” it pushes you. And you’re consuming and producing this stuff all day. I can say at Jezebel, we hired one of our commenters because on every post, we hired her as a weekend editor, she is one of the most popular writers. She has a job in finance. She lives not in New York, not in LA, but on every post she would leave the most hilarious pithy one liner. And eventually, I think The Daily Show should hire her. There are places to find women now. I don’t know that people are looking there. But I think there are more people producing that stuff now and thinking of themselves as doing that.

RS: I think you raised an amazing point that we’re not sure if they are looking. If you’re looking or recruiting. I used this analogy the other day, addressing another panel in tech, talked about how if you’re a startup or putting on a show, you’re looking to tap into an audience. That’s a search. It’s a task for your job. Not a lot of people looking to recruit into their cast look beyond the narrow field of who they know. As someone who sort of lives on the internet, and has maybe 50 windows open on my tweetdeck, in this thing all the time. It struck me after the Oscars; the AP listed the 10 funniest tweets from the Oscars— all guys. I was like, really? What the fuck? I was totally monitoring that stream. No offense to Michael Ian Black, who is a funny guy, but the tweet they chose for him was like “I hope Natalie Portman has her baby on stage,” but you know, we can do better than that. I saw better than that. That’s an example of the writer’s narrow gambit of whom he is following.

JD: I sort of have this theory that sometime everything really really good substantial and brilliant happens by accident. Like those little parts that you don’t think are going to be a big deal that just blow up because everyone left them alone. Like they sort of let Flight of the Concords have a little budget, and suddenly it’s brilliant because no one was micromanaging it. So many problems with the network shows is they’re micromanaged into not being good. I’d be very curious to see the American pilot they did of Pulling because I’m sure they just pulled it apart. But the point being I think there is such opportunity for things to happen by accident on the internet. That’s when things happen, when they don’t think people are paying attention and suddenly its the funniest thing in the world

RS: Can I just bring up a small point, specific to Ronna & Beverly — Jamie and Jessica might be the only women I know, who put themselves in public and style themselves to look older.

JD: It’s very Vickie Lawrence. That’s for the over 35 year olds in here.

RS: How is that received?

JD: You know by the powers that be, not great. No one wants to market middle aged Yenta characters to the world. a big obstacle, when we did a Showtime pilot, directed by Paul Feig who did Bridesmaids, and I want to give an amazing credit to, for knowing funny women, always elevating funny women and allowing women to be funny. He took on this project which was two middle aged Jewish women, we were aged up, with liver spots, but one of the big concerns was, who are we marketing this to?  These are the least sexy people you’d ever want to take a picture of and put out to the public, but our argument was everyone has a mother. This is a show for everyone. It’s not a show for your mother. It’s a show for everyone with a mother. But they were very confounded.

RS: You reminded me I went to a comedy show recently and ran into a female comedian who commented she’s been asked more than once to look more fuckable.

JD: Ronna & Beverly, not so fuckable.

RS: I think they’re fuckable.

JD: Maybe Ronna, maybe me.

RS: It’s funny because I’ve heard Jonah Hill was told not too lose too much weight

MW: Bobby Moynihan was told to gain weight.

JD: There was that thing in Vanity Fair, the last issue like ‘fat guys — awesome!” talking about how great it is to be a fat guy. And I was like, wow, that’s great

IC: And you’ve got Melissa McCarthy as well. She stole a lot of scenes last night

RS: We’ve got ten or fifteen minutes let so we thought we’d open up the floor to questions. not long comments, questions. Oh look a microphone!

Qa: This question is for Michaela because it’s been driving me crazy all these years: Catherine O’Hara is the best thing on SCTV, and with all due respect to Kristin cause she’s hilarious and I can’t wait to see Bridesmaids, but you were the best, funniest thing on SNL during that season, I think. We miss you. I hope you get your own show. it seems like Tina Fey’s ascension as head writer there was breaking through to an era that would be broader and more balanced and yet, it seems since your departure, it seems to me there’s been a backslide. If you feel like commenting, would you mind talking about that? What are these obstacles? 

MW: That’s interesting. First of all, thank you for your kind flattering comments. I don’t necessarily know that SNL is backsliding. I know when I went on SNL Wikipedia, I saw of the ten oldest people hired there was only one woman — and that woman was me. And so I was a little confounded leaving and that was a bummer. But I think they did a good job casting. I really love that Vanessa Bayer. i think she’s kicking butt on the show. And so I can’t speak to it, or subscribe to it as backsliding except that once again the powers that be are underestimating what is interesting to their demographic. When you have 13 year olds quoting “Bitch Please,” it doesn’t really make sense that it’s not getting to them. So I’m not sure where the decision was to move out older people and bring in younger people and I’m only guessing that’s what it is. I’ll never know. In a weird way, I don’t want to know because you know, what if it’s just like “well, you suck.” So, I think that SNL is just doing its best to stay relevant and that’s what’s happening. But I think they have made some smart casting decisions. Does that answer your question?

Qa: Yes, it does and I’m a big fan of New Christine as well.

Qb: Hi i’m Melissa, I work for the Washington Post, so I think you’re still classically beautiful. We all think so. This has been a fascinating panel and I’d like to hear a little bit more about the Internet part about this. We’re obviously an image based society so the movie based roles and TV based roles are hugely important. What do you think? I think a big part of this is the writing aspect too. So what do you think people should do in the writing and blogging world to get more people out there?

MW: There used to be a time young women could make excuses — I just can’t get a part, I can’t get an audition —but now in the digital age there’s just no excuse. I still make my own videos and post them to Funny or Die. I don’t wait for someone to come along and offer me a part. And I don’t think that, as easy as it is to make your own content, there’s no excuse not to post it.

JD: Even in a digital age, what’s nice it and interesting and notable is comedy theaters are still flourishing. Live comedy. The Upright Citizens Brigade is so big now. When we started there, it was 199 [whispers “8”] and there was a teeny little theater of twenty people taking classes. Now they have spaces all over the city and revolutionized the way people learn about comedy. New York used to be a stand up town, and they’ve really changed that and made it a communal comedy place. There are so many places to go and what’s nice now is you do form those bonds that help you find creative partnerships that make you want to put things on the web and do things out in the world. But I do believe it all stems from live performance. I don’t ever want to get so lost in the world that we’re all making comedy alone in the basement. I know that’s very progressive and successful but it’s not living comedy. And even in Los Angeles where no one goes out after 9 o’clock, Upright Citizen Brigade has lines around the block every Saturday and Sunday because people are thirsty for that. And they do upload what goes on, because people want to see that but I do think it’s important to get to a flesh and blood place and interact and be part of that because it’s inspiring.

Qb: Do you think that we need more sites like Jezebel, community grounds that are woman-oriented?

JD: Sure, but I’ll also say that places that seem male-dominated because men are on the masthead like Funny or Die, in my experience they’ve been incredibly welcoming. I’ve never ever felt they were shunning women. I think a lot of women wouldn’t go there but think, ah, it’s all dudes. But actually, they’ll be very welcoming to female content. They’re sponsoring a show right after this. They are incredibly welcoming to female voices, so if you want to skip a step and go to a site that’s already established —ˆ don’t work for Funny or Die or Universal although they should be fucking paying me — they are open but yeah, places like Jezebel are fantastic.

IC: Well, we have to be a gateway drug for a lot of things. And one of those things is maybe people who might not go to a straight comedy source, but are looking for entertainment news, gossip, or maybe politics in a frame that they like, we think a lot about trying to support the women who are trying to do these funny things. In fact, I hear a lot about women who are starting new projects, there’s a site ComeDiva that’s going to be a new portal for comedy.  It’s not an issue I thought about in this critical way until I was reporting on it. And I realize, oh wait, three’s a reason I never go to see comedy and that’s because it’s kind of bro-ish and doesn’t speak to me. Now I know where to find it.

RS: I just want to comment, I was going to announce at the end, but when South by Southwest announced the lineup. This panel was in the first slate that was greenlit. And SXSW interviewed me for the magazine. But when the initial line up was listed —for standup—there were 30 guys and one woman. So I worked with South by Southwest to build this panel and have a subsequent show. So we have a show at CNN Grill. But I want to say, UCB and Funny or Die said yes, when I asked for sponsorship without questions. And I thought that was a very important and heartwarming signal. So anyhow, next question —fabulous hair—

Qc: Thank you. My name is Lindsay, I do the YouTube comedy thing because I’m a coward. I was wondering what you think of sacrificing your femininity to be funny. Because I know my haircut, my occasional plaid shirt does concern my mother. In order to be funny, it seems important to be aggressive. So dudes will run around, make fart jokes, but as girls we’re trying to get Prince Charming to fall in love with us

RS: A good loud fart helps for that. In my experience.

IC: There’s a lot of diarrhea and projectile vomiting in Bridesmaids. While wearing pretty dresses

MW: I think, this is coming from someone ‘too classically pretty.’ The things that was weird about that, is clearly this person is not too familiar with my work. Being pretty is the last things from my mind. Also, trying to be grotesque is not the first thing on my mind. Trying to be authentic to the character is what is on my mind. And if the character is someone who is ugly, or just in their personality, or various physical attributes. But it’s about being authentic to who that person is so that if you ran into them at 7-11 you would think they were real, not playing a character. So when it comes to compromising femininity, this has never been on my radar of something to hold on or let go. 

Qd: Hi I’m Doctor Goddess, that’s my stage name. And I’m a funny woman. And I have some of the most brilliant, funny black women on my Twitter timeline. We talk about the Oscars, you will be doubled over in pain laughing reading us during Real Housewives, Atlanta or Beverly Hills. We know who’s broke or who’s not. But I agree with Rachel regarding the Oscars because we were monitoring as well and I saw a lot of funny stuff. As well Jimmy Fallon, I told him I have a personal problem but I do love him, but look, we should’ve been up there.

RS: That’s funny, they’ve got a lot of women on staff there. 

Qd: And you can tell, they have a whole difference in psychology. But what we want to know is what is up with the whole Saturday Night Live lack of black women on that show? Twenty-five years!

MW: And when I was hired people were like, “We hired a black woman!”

Qd: It’s of concern to us, because we have a black first lady. With tons of jokes readily available about bicep curls and fashion shows and we’re tired of seeing Kennan Thompson representing us —it’s ridiculous and appalling!

RS: Please tweet that.

Qd: Yeah, I have! I’ve said, damn you Lorne Michaels you’ve gone up on Oprah but you wouldn’t have Oprah on Saturday Night Live. I probably shouldn’t audition after that.

MW: When I got on the show I sent them seven hilarious, beautifully funny black women for the show. To no avail. I don’t know what they’re looking for

Qd: Kenan obviously. Well, just put it out there.

RS: Great comments. Thank you.

MW: If I made decisions on SNL, would things have happened the way they did

SB: I think I could speak to that.

MW: That’s right, you wrote for Mad TV.

SB: Part of it is hiring. It’s Lorne Michaels vs. the two guys who were the show runners for Mad TV, who had a much more even ratio. Maybe more women than men, and we never questioned it. They just wanted to find the funniest people. I think Lorne Michaels is a boy’s club guy.

MW: And there’s been maybe one homosexual in the cast.

SB: And speaking to the last person’s comment. To wait for a change in SNL under that leadership, you’re going to wait a long time. And that’s when you need to be the change—

RS: He made the Obama documentary

SB: Rather than wait for someone to change it for you. 

Qe: Michaela, I may not find you a classically beautiful black women, but 2011 is your black woman year. One of the thrilling things about Bridesmaids last night, I felt I could tell my friends this is a great comedy period. I hope and I know groups of women, everyone will see this. Hopefully big audience. Men will definitely find this funny because someone like Paul Feig created an environment for this to flourish. Who are some of the women who in your experience like Jill Solloway with the Tight video, that we should be looking out for?

MW: Jill Solloway is a great example. She wrote a beautiful screenplay Reachout that she’s trying to get funding for.

JD: Katie Dippold, a writer on Parks and Recreation, who just wrote a feature script. Danielle Schneider and Dannah Furman [does she mean Feinglass?] who wrote a little video store rental called Beverly Hills Chihuahua II but have since moved on to comedic scripts that better suit their sensibilities. There are so many young talented amazing women. I know them because I’m still less tech savvy than I should be, and I know people that I taught and performed with at the UCB theater, but they are trying and there are people you haven’t heard of that will be amazing creators.

MW: It’s too many to name almost. But that’s a great question.

Qf: Hi, I’ll Jillian Civilian, and I follow standup comedy as I would a band. And I grew up with great female comedians like Ana Gasteyer, Amy Pohler, Tina Fey on SNL and I have a question for Carmon, Watkins and everyone is the reason there were powerful women on the show is there were powerful women in the media to parody. So is that what’s influencing your comedy —to have these women already out there?

MW: When I did Hoda, five minutes before the table read someone said “Can you do Hoda Kotb?” I didn’t know what was a Hoda. Then I sat and watched 15 minutes of the Today Show and thought, people watch this? People invite this in their living rooms? Because what I saw was this women who I assessed was I think this woman is there to keep the show on its tracks.

Qf: I think Sarah Palin has been the greatest gift to comedy.

IC: If anyone here has not yet read Rebecca Traister’s book Big Girls Don’t Cry, I recommend picking up a copy. A point she makes is how it helped female comedians. Not just Fey as Palin, but Amy Pohler doing Hillary Clinton, although obviously Sarah Palin is the big one. It’s hard to say who will run in 2012 and if the joke will be too old—

RS: Mitt Romney is comedy gold.

IC: I just don’t know that for women, 2012 will be that rich.

MW: Well I did Arianna Huffington and that was a love letter to her. I love that woman, it’s not just comedians trying to tear down strong women, it’s that there are finally women that we can do. So we’re all not just doing Richard Nixon impressions. That’s really a contemporary reference. I’m glad I made that one.

JB: Really the Sarah Palin thing put Tina in the minds of people who didn’t watch 30 Rock. 

RS: Just a quick note on Tina Fey and Sarah Palin— That happened after the writer’s strike. I do a lot of monitoring of these topics and the media side. That fucking blew SNL Digital out of the water. That inaugurated the cottage industry of taking SNL sketches and minting them as blog posts the next day

Qg: As a follow up to Goddess’ question —I go on auditions a lot. You can’t find a quality role for black women, especially in comedy and if you’re not snapping your fingers, if you don’t have red braids you’re not hilarious. I remember going out for Couples Retreat and it was myself and three billion other black chicks pretending to be ghetto. Kali Hawk is awesome, Maya Rudolph is awesome, but do you think the lack of roles for black women in comedy has to do with how people perceive black women as funny? Most black women in comedic roles are playing ghetto and jokes about food stamps

MW: People don’t have that quick reference in their head. When they think we need a black woman, they are thinking about filling an ethnic role as opposed to just…like Stuart said, be the change—

Qg: It’s frustrating but look at the Asian chick in Knocked Up. I loved her! Because they always make the Asian someone wearing glasses

JD: That’s an example of writing for her specific comedy. If you know Charlene Yi’s work, she is a performance artist and comedian in Los Angeles and Judd saw and said “I’m going to put that person in my movie.” I’m not going to write this role. And I think that’s the way to change it. Keep doing what you do. Actually, in a lot of ways that’s what makes men pop. So Rob Corddry, Rob Riggles, they’re all named Rob. Paul Scheer. Write for the person, the personality and the voice. You’ve got to find your name.

SB: I strongly agree with that and I think, whether you’re a person of color or a blond women, there are a lot of people you are competing with. If you’re someone they can meld together, you need to find what’s unique. I think of Aisha Tyler, of course she’s drop dead gorgeous, but she’s weird, she’s brilliant and sharp. On Archer, they use her voice, but they don’t know she’s black. Whether a black woman or a blond woman, you need to find the thing in you.

JD: Thinking of the women in Bridesmaids, again, I’m not working for Universal—

RS: Change the hashtag already!

JD: But they are specific, and it’s clear he’s letting them work with their voices. There are not enough black women in Bridesmaids that I will say.

Qg: Well, Maya’s doing her thing

JB: That’s half of one. The point is there is an individual comedic voice that people need to be writing to

MW: Be your authentic self. I didn’t think SNL was looking for 36-year-old women to hire but they did.

RS: Be your authentic self! So we’re going to end on that note. I just want to say, this was the kind of panel that I wanted to see. So I was going to be the change and make this fucking panel. I would not leave a lot of people alone until they said they’d do it.  It was the same for the comedy show we’re doing after. Ladykillerz with a Z on Eventbrite, if there’s not room it is broadcast outside.

This is awesome. I have to thank this fucking fantastic stupendous panel, vagainas and penises alike. Please keep writing your comments for the vagina hashtag, now and forevermore because why not? Thank you!

Here’s the thing: A headline on TechCrunch reading: “Women in Tech: Look around the World and Stop Complaining” is meant to be inflammatory. I get it. I certainly would not have clicked on just the URL: http://techcrunch.com/2010/09/14/how-did-i-get-more-bullish-on-chinese-innovation-than-kai-fu-lee. That’s not sexy, controversial, muscle-flexy, bird-flippy. HEY YOU UNGRATEFUL WOMEN, STOP COMPLAINING! is. And hey, I’m writing about it! So, I get it. 

I saw that headline and first thought it was a plea for perspective in the face of global problems that we could be using our collective power to address. Pakistan relief? Millennium Development Goals? Orgs like BPeace or Kiva? There’s all sorts of things to be done on any and all of those fronts. Then I thought about orgs like Goods4Good, Foundation Rwanda, Haiti Rewired, and also how looking around the world impelled me to start Charitini and Cindy Gallop to start If We Ran The World. Oh but wait that’s not what she was talking about. 

Sorry, I have to read it again to figure out what she was talking about. Because first it seemed that she’d looked around the world, well, Asian tech-industry wise, and seen pretty much the same patterns (“Not enough role models, not enough mentoring and problems with work-family life balance….at least everyone in the world seems to have the exact same issue”). But then there was this: 

According to the World Economic Forum’s statistics, there is almost gender parity when it came to technical and professional jobs and leadership roles in the United States. Huh?

You don’t have to be a business reporter for fifteen years to know CEO and director level jobs are highly lopsided towards men. Tech or not in tech, there are simply not as many of women in successful, high-profile leadership roles…I challenged the numbers and was told they get thinner as you go up the ladder, which explains the disconnect.

Okay so am I crazy or does this sound like Lacy is agreeing with the central thesis of CTR and the like? I have used that word “lopsided” so many times when discussing the ratio - or The Ratio as it were - and the WSJ article that kicked this whole thing off was about different groups which had identified the problem and were taking action toward a solution. (As a side note, it’s funny how little that article is returned to. Guess it’s easier to dismiss that action as “complaining”). 

Lacy goes on: “But the numbers show that in the US women are equal to men in getting a foot in the door, which is more than developing markets can claim…Statistically you are the envy of the world.” So look at that headline again: “Women, look around the world and stop complaining!” Translation: Be grateful for what you have. To which I can only respond: Blergh. 

Lacy, however, made an extremely cogent point: That a lot of women who start out on par with men voluntarily exit the pool to have kids or whatnot. Said Lacy: “Here’s what we need: A serious study that looks at choice. Are more women not in management decisions by choice or because the chose not to be or because of a glass ceiling?” The headline there would have been: “Women In Tech: Just How Much of the Ratio is a Function of Choice?” Great headline, highlighting a new and thoughtful element to the discussion. Alas, Lacy declined to go that route. 

I find it sort of ironic that she’s tired of all the bellyaching yet supports complacency and serene acceptance of the thing that people are bellyaching about. Sort of bizarro logic, really. Not to mention the reiteration of the “don’t complain, do something!” meme which dismisses advocacy and agitation as inaction. And, you know, I will say that when I make a claim I back it up - with this statistic or that study, with links underscoring the claims being made. I would have welcomed the same from Lacy here, with such unsupported assertions as “Maybe you’re at a disadvantage, but for most immigrants, women or other minorities being at a disadvantage has made them stronger.” Stronger how? Richer? More influential and successful? Or the generic “we learn from our obstacles, and don’t forget that there are two sets of footsteps on the beach, except for when it’s really hard when God will carry you.” Come now. Of course obstacles make us stronger - Steve Jobs, Bill Gates and any other super-success story would say that. But to suggest that the challenges of a lopsided ratio are the reasons for women to be MORE successful and thus overcome the ratio so if the ratio doesn’t change it’s their fault - well, that’s just a tad insulting.

p.s.I cut out a bit of that blockquote above, where the ellipsis is, because of a non-sequitur - that many of the most successful female CEOs “don’t want to do media interviews because they are sick to death of this topic that some people say – constantly—doesn’t ‘get enough attention.’” I took it out because whether or not someone wants to do interviews does not have any bearing on whether they are in a high-profile leadership role. Also, as I said in my last post, probably they’d be sick to death of being only asked about being a woman as opposed to being asked about all sorts of stuff across the board. Note again who was, and was not, quoted in that NYmag piece.

All right, I’m done making people at TechCrunch hate me for the day.  Onward!

clayman:

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My two favorite dolls both did something: Dancerella, which had a motor that spun her around by a thing in her head, and a doll that would walk, and I would lie down and measure myself against her steps. They may have gotten haircuts.